Carl Tyler's Blog

Comments

1 - And in my opinion SearchDomino checked out of being involved in Notes and Domino years ago...doesn't seem like they spend any time creating value-add...

Howard

Posted by Howard At 01:05:48 PM On 12/23/2010 | - Website - |

2 - I agree...email marketing is passe now. But vendors do need to reach customers using their existing networks.

My work on NotesAppStore is designed to let vendors reach customers in a customer-friendly way. That means we do not collect email addresses, so they cannot be spammed.

The best approach is one where the customer finds a benefit directly.

For example, we just listed the vendors who will be at Lotusphere Product Showcase as a useful guide:
{ Link }

There is more work to be done, but I am hoping we can show people that there are many, many vendor-supported, customer-tested and reviewed apps in one easy to find location!

Posted by Frank Paolino At 01:50:36 PM On 12/23/2010 | - Website - |

3 - @2 I should also add, I really dislike comment posts that turn into sales pitches.

Posted by Carl Tyler At 02:01:14 PM On 12/23/2010 | - Website - |

4 - Absolutely classic.

Posted by Lance Spellman At 02:03:31 PM On 12/23/2010 | - Website - |

5 - @3 It is unfortunate that every effort to promote Lotus Notes and Domino is derided by someone. I think I am working to develop a new way to reach out to LND customers, outside the spam. And it is free.

I tried to make that point in response to the "old" SearchDomino approach, which is certainly outdated.

3rd party vendors are in disarray and I am working to change that (for free).

If you take that as a sales pitch, then I guess you don't really want any replies except "Wonderful post, thanks!"

Wonderful posts, thanks!

Posted by Frank Paolino At 03:49:23 PM On 12/23/2010 | - Website - |

6 - First step: tell them 'no more!' (I assume you did that)
Second step: Report to DNSBL providers.

Posted by Vitor Pereira At 04:22:47 PM On 12/23/2010 | - Website - |

7 - @3 so I am in charge of Sales here at MayFlower/SpamSentinel- I'm afraid you didn't read the reply @2 from Frank about NotesAppStore.com- this is NOT a spamming site - it is an alternative to the email campaigns that really are not effective - and you said you don't like - I agree with you. The thought here is a new approach for customers to find robust apps for LN and D

What approaches do you use to reach new customers that you find effective?

Posted by Allison Cote At 05:04:50 PM On 12/23/2010 | - Website - |

8 - @3 - I'm trying to offer an alternative to email spam campaigns by providing a site where people can buy sexy lingerie without bothersome emails.

3 Symptoms that May Bring Injuries to Your A-One { Link } One Should Know the Beauty and Misunderstanding of { Link } { Link } Also Turn into the Luxurious that are Affordable by Common People How to Cast It? { Link } can Help You Make It! 7 Rationale That Will Affect the Appearance of Your { Link }

I don't see why you have a problem with this, Carl. You must just be some kind of asshole or something.

Posted by Nathan T. Freeman At 05:27:53 PM On 12/23/2010 | - Website - |

9 - @3 I don't think I derided the "effort to promote Notes and Domino", and I challenge anyone to post a link to any comments I have made regarding your app store.

So to make sure any confusion is cleared up I derided the approach taken in the comment to promote your app store.

Posted by Carl Tyler At 05:51:05 PM On 12/23/2010 | - Website - |

10 - @8 Nathnan, I don't get your point?

@9 So it is the approach? I guess if I had given the logic that lead me to create the NotesAppStore (where there is NO Notes lingerie) was my dislike for current marketing approaches and the utter lack of viable alternatives, so I decided to do something about it, that would have been better?

It was on-topic, certainly, relevant to LN issues.

BTW, why don't you list Epilio on the NotesAppStore? It is free.

I'd love to have you list your product. All I get out of it is the beer people are offering to buy me at Lotusphere

Posted by Frank Paolino At 06:16:57 PM On 12/23/2010 | - Website - |

11 - Hilarious!

Posted by Vitor Pereira At 07:08:29 PM On 12/23/2010 | - Website - |

12 - @Frank - you said "3rd party vendors are in disarray". Not this ISV.

We tried NotesAppStore but as you well know Frank it's not very ISV friendly and seems to only benefit Maysoft collecting all of our RFQ's and leads.

Sorry Charlie.

Posted by Bruce At 01:24:16 AM On 12/24/2010 | - Website - |

13 - @10
>>"I'd love to have you list your product. All I get out of it is the beer people are offering to buy me at Lotusphere"

Frank, don't you also Require that the ISV puts a link from a page on the ISV web site back to NotesAppStore? Isn't this a form of payment? (and you threaten to/and do delist products that don't link to you!)

Also, without any invitation from the ISV, you put a facility in the NotesAppStore so that potential customers of the ISV product can request a quotation!! and then you collect all their details!!

Posted by Richard Hogan At 05:50:38 AM On 12/24/2010 | - Website - |

14 - @Frank and Alison - I would be very interested in your response to Bruce's and Richard's comments.

I liked the concept of the notesappstore, but according to their comments it reads just like a sneaky way to get leads.

Posted by Paul Mooney At 07:57:23 AM On 12/24/2010 | - Website - |

15 - @14 Just to be clear, we do collect leads on behalf of the vendors. We do not contact them for any reason (except a reply from the vendor), not the NotesAppStore, not Maysoft.

We have generated about 100 leads for the vendors so far.

@12 I am very interested in leads, but only those who say they want "SpamSentinel". Maybe I am missing something here. You have falsely insinuated this multiple times in multiple venues. Do you ask this because you use OpenNTF resources for Elguji and think I am doing the same? Well I am not. Are you?

My hope is that people will find the site, find it useful, and ask me for a quote.

Think of it this way: People come to Lotusphere, drop by some booths, and they might drop by mine.

@13 I am sorry, free referred to money. I don't think of a link as a cost. So far, 300 listings confirm this.

Posted by Frank Paolino At 08:47:42 AM On 12/24/2010 | - Website - |

16 - Frank,

To be frank, your efforts here are in most people's opinions NO DIFFERENT than spam. By hijacking someone else's blog to promote your site/product/service, you are actually worse than the spammer as now you've coerced a 3rd party into participation in your marketing. It is not appreciated by anyone in the community and essentially leaves a black mark against your name and company. If your goal is simply to reach end user companies and "competition" be damned, then ok. But it seems like you actually want the BP community to endorse and work with you, and tactics like these completely alienate you from them.

Posted by Lance Spellman At 08:57:28 AM On 12/24/2010 | - Website - |

17 - @16 Again, I thought the comment was in context. A spam is a non-sequitor comment on a blog. A comment agreeing with the blog saying, yes, email marketing is dead and annoying, and talking to a person who is a vendor, like yourself, and explaining how, as a vendor, we need new ways to reach customers in a non-offensive way, if you deem that as spam than you have a right to your opinion, but I disagree.

Many vendors love this effort and send me strong emails of praise about the NotesAppStore. Remember, there were all kinds of people saying we need one in October 2009. Instead of complaining, I actually built one, and when I mention it, a site that promotes LND vendors like yourself (but I see you are not listed there) there is all this negativity.

Posted by Frank Paolino At 09:09:14 AM On 12/24/2010 | - Website - |

18 - @Frank:

re: " Do you ask this because you use OpenNTF resources for Elguji and think I am doing the same? Well I am not. Are you?"

Absolutely not. My reputation for community goodwill is the only thing that I give. I ask for nothing in return. NOTHING. Additionally, Elguji HAS NO access to any of the OpenNTF resources such as the NAB etc. NO ACCESS.

Frank - how dare you....

Posted by Bruce At 09:17:04 AM On 12/24/2010 | - Website - |

19 - @19 Ditto

Posted by Frank Paolino At 09:21:56 AM On 12/24/2010 | - Website - |

20 - One last thought:

"Your communication is the response you get"

Time to enabled #ignore.

Posted by Bruce At 09:45:18 AM On 12/24/2010 | - Website - |

21 - "so, without any invitation from the ISV, you put a facility in the NotesAppStore so that potential customers of the ISV product can request a quotation!! and then you collect all their details!!"

Mr. Frank?

Posted by Can't say At 09:48:56 AM On 12/24/2010 | - Website - |

22 - @20, Bruce, If you don't like the NoteAppStore, all you have to say is "remove me" and I will do it for you?

@21 Too shy to put your name? Is that you, Bruce?

I replied to this already here, but we do not use this info for any purpose but for the vendor reply, and it is an automated system.

Posted by Frank Paolino At 09:54:31 AM On 12/24/2010 | - Website - |

23 - It is amazing that there are hundreds (probably thousands) of blog posts about "saving Lotus Notes" and "improving IBMs marketing" etc. etc. and when someone actually builds something, instead of helping out, the best some people can do is find non-problems to criticize?

Is that the best we can do?

Posted by Frank Paolino At 09:57:37 AM On 12/24/2010 | - Website - |

24 - Frank - Saying you agree with unscrupulous third parties abusing their mailing lists would be appropriate in context with Carl's post. That isn't what you did, though. You weren't responding to the content of the SearchDomino e-mails. You weren't objecting to their tactics. Your reply has absolutely, positively nothing to do with Carl's complaint. If you insist it does, you're unhinged from reality.

To be crystal clear: don't post anything about Notes App Store on anyone's blog unless they specifically say "I wonder where I can find high-quality Notes solutions from third party vendors." And you should also be sure to include OpenNTF in your recommendation. Otherwise it's a sales pitch. No, really: it's a sales pitch.

You might also consider bringing in a community board to oversee the Notes App Store instead of making it a single-vendor effort. Opacity doesn't yield trust.

Posted by Charles Robinson At 10:33:58 AM On 12/24/2010 | - Website - |

25 - Frank: no-one's criticising the idea of a Notes app store.

Posted by Ben Poole At 10:43:17 AM On 12/24/2010 | - Website - |

26 - @24 Thanks for a clear reasoned post, and I see your point.

As for the board, to be honest, I am having trouble getting vendors to invest much time. I think they are busy working on their own issues.

However, I did send out a survey and got about 50 responses with suggestions and ideas on improvements.

My email is frank@maysoft.com for anyone who would like to be on some sort of board. N.B. It means some work, as this is all volunteer....

Posted by Frank Paolino At 10:54:14 AM On 12/24/2010 | - Website - |

27 - @Paul: Bit short sighted writing off one of the most innovative initiatives in the Notes/Domino community in recent years based only upon the comments of two people here who obviously have axes of their own to grind, isn't it? I'd speak with the couple of hundred vendors who appreciate the effort involved in putting something like the NotesAppStore together and happily list their products and services on the site before drawing that kind of conclusion. Oh .. and anyone freely listed there who can openly criticise the approach is a hypocrite in my book.

Posted by Doug Moore At 11:05:59 AM On 12/24/2010 | - Website - |

28 -
Frank, I think it's a shame that you're not hearing what the community is saying here.

On the one hand, I know a small customer who uses one of your products and is quite loyal to it. She's described your people in very positive terms and told me about a support incident where they clearly went above and beyond to help her. I think I even used one of your products way way back in the day, and at the time it did what I needed it to do.

If that were the end of the story, it would be great. Unfortunately, I am also of the opinion that the post was a form of spam. When someone does that on my site, usually I just delete the the comment. Sometimes I delete it and replace it with an editor's note saying that I've removed it as comment spam. Very occasionally, if it really catches me in a bad mood, I redirect the link to somewhere else -- a competitor's site or worse.

Over the years I've seen too many people overstep the bounds of polite community to try to gain market advantage at the expense (or just the insult) of others. I've seen made up awards given out to products from publishers related to the owner of the product. I've seen so called third party rating systems co-opted to favor the company which was ultimately behind the rating system. I've seen group panels deliberately flooded with logo-wear to a make a market presence statement at the cost of the others on the panel. I've also seen a lot of comment spam.

As a long standing member of this community, let me be clear that there is NOTHING which makes me not only less likely to recommend an otherwise good product or service offering but in fact likely to advocate against it by citing ethical issues than when I see this kind of thing.

I can't know if what you're doing is truly well meaning but simply a misreading of social cues on a nearly autistic level, or a more deliberate and cynical attempt at marketing above all else. It isn't possible to know that. What I do know, for sure, is that a very large part of my own business comes from the goodwill I occasionally generate in the community. I suspect that in the end, you're missing out a lot more than you're gaining through the strategies you're using now.

Posted by Andrew Pollack At 11:42:16 AM On 12/24/2010 | - Website - |

29 - @28 I again think that what I said, way back in @2, was that email marketing is dead and went on to say vendors should find other means of reaching LND customers, was on topic and not spam.

If my conclusion was "people should support OpenNTF" would that have been politically correct and acceptable?

I did not intend to offend anyone, but some people look to be offended because it gives them an excuse to be "right".

Posted by Frank Paolino At 11:57:20 AM On 12/24/2010 | - Website - |

30 - @29 - Frank, I won't argue the point as if to convince you that posts like that are or are not spam. My point is that I perceived it that way, and a great many other people in this social context perceived it that way. The same is being said about some of the other marketing tactics you're using. I won't try to convince you that this is True in some universal Platonic definition of True. I'd rather hope you would understand that accurate or not, it's working against you. I know it is with respect to how I think of your company and I believe that to be the case for others.

Posted by Andrew Pollack At 12:16:48 PM On 12/24/2010 | - Website - |

31 - Sigh.

OK, Frank, here's the blunt truth.

In the past you and your company have done and said things that have certainly not endeared you to this community, at a minimum, or more realistically have broken the bond of trust within this community. This means that you are not afforded the benefit of the doubt that others are granted, causing you and Mayflower to need to go much more above and beyond to demonstrate that your actions are truly altruistic - and even then those words and actions will be met with a great deal of skepticism.

In short, your (and Mayflower's) words and actions must be above reproach.

My mom used to tell me that "it only takes one aw shit to wipe out a hundred attaboys". And while your "aw shit" moment may have happened awhile back, I suspect that you're still a bit light in the "attaboy" tally.

In closing, I just want to remind you (and all of us, really) that, within this community, you should look at your relationships here in a friendly and familial way - not as a revenue generation relationship.

Rock

Posted by Rock At 12:26:25 PM On 12/24/2010 | - Website - |

32 - @30 So, instead of creating a discussion about how marketers "should" or "could" reach customers (I offered one way) this has turned into a discussion of perception of my motives. I guess I AM autistic, as I misread this thread as frustration with email marketing and mentioned that there are alternatives for vendors that are user-friendly.

Posted by Frank Paolino At 12:32:54 PM On 12/24/2010 | - Website - |

33 - @32 - The way it reads, to me, is that your post in @2 co-opted the thread as a self promotion complete with a call to action link, and that subsequently several community members have co-opted it back to call into question your tactics.

That's exactly what I'm talking about though. Who knows if you meant nothing but the best in your posting @2. Your history and standing worked against you and the overall result has been negative.

Could someone else have made a one line response with a link and gotten away with it? Probably, depending on who they were and their history of contribution it may have been seen differently.

Posted by Andrew Pollack At 12:43:56 PM On 12/24/2010 | - Website - |

34 - @31 Double sigh, especially when those perceptions are wrong and repeated. The big "blunt truth" which is "blatanly false" is that I owned DominoFiles. Well, as I have said, I was a customer till about 2006 and stopped using them because I saw where email marketing was heading (see the title of Carl's post).

Nathan blindly repeats these misrepresentations, including the ownership falsehood.

So, it is a shame that some people sprayed "aw shit" on me and it is difficult to get off, as your comment demonstrates.

Posted by Frank Paolino At 12:44:13 PM On 12/24/2010 | - Website - |

35 - @27 - Doug.<br /><br />Where did I write it off exactly? Please do point that out, because I must of missed it. I asked a question. I believe that is allowed. The perception given by Bruce and Richard is not good. I know both these people, and respect them professionally.<br /><br />Side note - if your aim was to call me a hypocrite, you best justify that statement. Where am I listed? What products do I create/sell?<br /><br />I wrote a review of a product about seven months ago, and notesappstore asked if they could put it on their site. The review, is/was on my site. I never created an account there or gave it any stars. Someone (I will assume Frank) did that. Although I thought it was a bit odd to have someone register an account for me etc, I thought little of it as it was starting up.<br /><br />I'm not writing off the concept. It seems the implementation needs a lot of work. What is needed is a group of non-product people to oversee it. The application needs to be hosted on a non-Maysoft site, and if it becomes a separate venture, maybe the product vendors won't mind putting some money towards it.

Posted by Paul Mooney At 01:42:33 PM On 12/24/2010 | - Website - |

36 - "Well, as I have said, I was a customer till about 2006 and stopped using them because I saw where email marketing was heading " -- Frank Paolino, above

Seriously?

That may be understating the relationship just a bit, I think. Frank, this was beaten into the ground six or seven years ago. I give you the following links..... Quick Sherman, to the way back machine....

{ Link } - InsideDomino"'s editor-in-chief, Frank Paolino, is the founder and president of Mayflower Software, Inc., and has 20 years experience developing Domino solutions. Publisher Jack Robinson is also publisher of "DominoFiles," the ultimate download site for Lotus Notes tools.

{ Link } -- InsideDomino, a web site "reporting" on Notes/Domino news, awarded an Editor's Choice award to the best products out there. They gave that "prestigious" award to Spam Sentinel. So far, OK. BUT HOLD ON THERE, BUCKO! The editor-in-chief of said website e-zine was none other than the president of... MayFlower Software.

And from my own blog in 2003: (interesting comment from Ed Brill in that thread)
{ Link } "Hmmm, the Editor's Choice is the software written by the Editor's Company. And to boot, they used mass email to market this farce."

{ Link } --- Frank Paolino, quoted for talking about "DominoFiles"
"I Love DominoFiles! Our server downloads increased to 25 times our normal daily rate (from 4 downloads per day to 100 so far today), and we haven't even gone a whole day since you sent our blast. Thanks!!!" Frank Paolino, MayFlower Software

Posted by Andrew Pollack At 02:19:27 PM On 12/24/2010 | - Website - |

37 - @35: Wow! I feel a bit like Frank must be feeling right now where a comment posted to add a bit of balance to previous comments that I know are at odds with the views of just as many BP's as those who actually share those views - and/or - to further the discussion [and that is allowed, isn't it Paul] gets completely misinterpreted.

For the record & to hopefully leave no room for misinterpretation. My bad!

The comment about hypocrisy was neither directed at you Paul nor was it directed at any one individual specifically.

The comment was aimed at those individuals and organizations within the BP community who gain benefit from a listing on the NotesAppStore while - from my perspective - seem to take almost every opportunity to simultaneously deride it.

As you say. You don't have a listing there so how could that comment possibly have been directed at you?

Again, my bad ... I probably could or should have prefaced the comment with "@InGeneral" to separate it from my comment that was in response to yours but I'm a relative newbie to this @ language so please forgive me this one time.

Anyhow .. I've completely lost interest in what is rapidly turning into an unnecessary, unprofessional and idiotic squabble.

Have fun without me guys. I'm looking for professional and objective comment on issues that affect us all, not sniping and the unnecessary picking of fights via online insult.

PS - That last comment wasn't directed at you either Paul.

Posted by Doug Moore At 02:54:58 PM On 12/24/2010 | - Website - |

38 - Doug. Consider yourself forgiven.

As I hás been said the concept is sound. It looks from implementation could do with work.

Posted by Paul mooney At 03:09:40 PM On 12/24/2010 | - Website - |

39 - Merry Christmas and Happy New Year everyone.

Posted by Rob Novak At 03:35:11 PM On 12/24/2010 | - Website - |

40 - Sometimes I wish we in the community around Notes/Domino didn't have such long memories.

But then I read Clintonian denials like Mr. Paolino is offering here and on his own blog regarding events that clearly took place in 2003-2005 and realize that the truth is still out there, and that this is a good thing.

I completely agree with Carl and others that search domino is inappropriately using it's mailing list. I publicly wrote them off years ago and am surprised they even still exist. Oh spam is bad too.

Posted by Ed Brill At 05:32:00 PM On 12/24/2010 | - Website - |

41 - @39 Thanks Rob. To you and Liz too.

Posted by Carl Tyler At 08:01:14 PM On 12/24/2010 | - Website - |

42 - Loved the concept of a NotesAppStore, but was concerned that a vendor is running an ad-site for other vendors? Would competitive products be allowed on this site? I guess since Maysoft hosts it they can at their discretion determine who is on or off. I know of at one vendor who tried to list and got zero replies on why their product was never accepted, and yes they tried contacting Frank directly with no response. Only left to believe that he didn't want them on the site.

Posted by John Michaels At 03:12:31 AM On 01/06/2011 | - Website - |